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Jason Hitchcock is a partner at To The Moon Capital, a crypto fund. Jason was early to Ethereum, Helium, CryptoPunks, Alchemix, and more. He has 12 years of early-stage startup experience with many of them at a startup studio and previous roles at Twitch and Bebo.

Enroll in Colin's Micro-PE Course & Community at IndiePE.com.

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Reach out to Colin Keeley and Brent Sanders on Twitter with any feedback.

Sell your SaaS at VerneHQ.com

[00:00:00] Colin Keeley: So hello and welcome back. This is Colin Keeley here,

[00:00:02] Brent Sanders: Brent Sanders.

[00:00:03] Colin Keeley: and we are two guys buying and building wonderful internet companies. And today we have a special guest, one of our first of many to come, Jason Hitchcock. So Jason, thanks so much for joining us

[00:00:13] Jason Hitchcock: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on.

[00:00:15] Colin Keeley: as you're doing a lot of things in crypto, how do you introduce yourself to people nowadays?

[00:00:20] Jason Hitchcock: I invest in crypto. I advise startups. I like to think about it. Like I missed out on I, I'm 35. I grew up in the nineties and like I missed out and I watched the internet grow and I knew it was awesome. And I feel like I missed out on web two and, it's what made me want to work on the internet.

And now I see. That all happening again. And I feel like, oh, I can be a part of it. And to be a part of, it means a lot of things. And today you can buy your way in. You can help your way in, or you can work your way in. And then want to do all three of those things in web three, as it rises.

[00:00:53] Colin Keeley: So I saw you or listened to you on, Erik Jorgensen's podcast. And it was fantastic. Like I've had this on my list to do like really dive into defy. It seemed like last summer everyone's doing it. And you were just so passionate and you put all your money into it made such a big bet. And I was like, I should take a week or two, to do my bed as well.

And it was worth it. But so for perspective, last week we did a primer. Brent asked me a bunch of questions of what I have learned over the last week or two, and like cover the basics. So I'd love to dive in to deeper questions today. If that works for you. To start a lot of what we talk about is like, building a private equity firm, Brent and I, our background was at like a series, a fund and also startup studio.

Brent, I know has a lot of really strong opinions on what worked well or what didn't in the startup studio world. Yeah. I'd love to hear about your time at monkey in front of you. Like what worked well, what did it there? What would you have done differently?

[00:01:43] Jason Hitchcock: Absolutely. And I always love my private equity friends because they're always working on businesses at just a completely different part of the story of the business. My last 10 years, I've been working at early stage startups, as one of the first employees or the founder going from like zero to a thousand users or customers for consumer enterprise.

And I did that in ad tech. I did that in gaming. I did that in other ad tech again, and SAS companies. And then I joined monkey Inferno, which is like a startup lab. That's funded by the founders of the original Bebo, like the third place, Facebook, MySpace, and then like Bebo had like Europe, and, so they basically gave him. Unlimited funding essentially to a lab. And what we did was we built apps and our goal was to have a home run. And so we had a whole methodology around, how do you come up with an idea for a group of people? And what's the manifestation of the app of that idea and how do you take it to market very quickly?

And we had a whole methodology for coming up with an idea. And getting it in the hands of users, like in two to three weeks, and we had a whole process on, we're going to kill this app in X days. It would be like three months. If we don't hit this goal and we would aggressively try to prove our way there and earn our, earn the ability to continue working on the app.

And we were very, we had very high standards and we killed a lot of things. And so w worked really well with not sitting on not knowing. And we broke up the entire day into hours and every single hour of the whole company was focused on like a problem. And we were constantly moving forward to, chip away at the A-plus problem.

Like why is nobody using our app? And, so that was, and I have a whole thread that I can share with you on like our whole style of work, which was pretty interesting. It led to a positive outcome, Twitch bot, our, one of our startups. And I worked there for the last two years. What didn't work well, it was just, we noticed that the times where we, the only answer that was unacceptable when we were doing experiments, working on things was like, I dunno, like if we didn't experiment and it wasn't, this decisively worked or this did not work and we know why it didn't work.

If we didn't know why it didn't work, it means we just didn't do the experiment. At some point we didn't try hard enough. We didn't set it up. Man, I could go on this forever. This could be like a whole nother podcast. You're just like making me reflect on, on my time at Bebo.

But then like how did I get into crypto? I was working at Twitch for two years doing fandom strategy. That was really interesting, I'd spent 10 years of doing early stage startups and I felt like 95% of my energy at Twitch was spent navigating Twitch a really big, awesome company. But if I had 5% of my time would be spent thinking about like cool idea we should do for the fans.

And then 95% was like, okay, how do we get marketing to help me? How do I get the legal to help me? Oh my God. I need to plan way ahead on procurement and the game working at Twitch became just like getting good at working in a Twitch and not like getting good at your domain. And, in that time, I'd been holding onto the crypto for a while, but like I bought, Bitcoin and Ethereum, just like everybody else, a a little bit like, oh, let's see what happens.

And, hold on to it. But I didn't know what you did with it. You couldn't do anything with it. And all in fact, all you, what was crypto to everybody, but like smart technical people say one day, this will be like very important. It seems to be going parabolic in the news every couple of years.

Okay. Maybe they're right. Maybe they're not right. I don't know. But if the cost of being right is I can put some money in and I could be a part of that. And whatever, like that's my skin in the game. If I'm wrong, I'm missing out on this crazy, parabolic thing and what to feel good about being right.

So I bought some of them, but then years ago, I, and I don't really know what you can do with crypto. And then one day defy comes out and a defy summer happens and your viewers Google it. They can go learn all about it. But basically now there's apps, crypto was being built. It was infrastructure.

Imagine, Python was coming together, JavaScript was coming together, but now. Apps like the ones you use on your phone and the internet there with buttons to press and everyone finds out. Are you telling me that the way that the Ethereum works is it's like you put the quarter in the machine runs and you see how that quarter splits off and pays everybody that made the software and goes to the stakeholders and the whole thing that just works.

And then you start to see other versions of this out. Then you're like, oh my God, I understand what the crypto internet is. It's a little bit different. I like it. And it's coming together, it's worth using. I don't know where we get where we go from there, but that's how we got into crypto.

[00:05:51] Colin Keeley: I'd love to focus on there's all these different parts start up. Sitios NFTs. Like all that could be its own episode. I think like focusing on defy today would be the most interesting for folks.

[00:06:01] Jason Hitchcock: Yeah, absolutely. That's what I'm most excited about right now.

[00:06:03] Colin Keeley: cool. So I guess the first step is just getting set up. So what is your recommendation for safety?

Cold wallets, everything like that. What's the most likely form of attack that people

[00:06:13] Jason Hitchcock: A hundred percent. And I recommend if anybody owns crypto. And you're like, I would say, if you're going to go to level two, which is you're going to go beyond going to the homepage of Cohen, Coinbase, or Binance, and like seeing the tokens that you've heard YouTube and your friends talk about, yes, you buy a little bit of Bitcoin, maybe buy some youth.

Holy crap. You buy some XRP because I don't know. You've heard about it for years. And then you buy Cordato who knows. And then he just leave it there. You watch the numbers go up and down like Robin hood. And that's that is, to me, that's not crypto. That is like asset trading. That's just like owning stock.

Okay, cool. If you're going to do crypto stuff, you're going to need to get your own wallet. Like in crypto land, everyone has a wall that's like your user identity on the crypto internet. And what's you, there are these things called hardware wallets, which are. Which just require a device and there's a ledger or a Trezor, or, I use a thing called a grid, plus it's by lattice, which has a touchscreen.

And all this means is there is a hardware device with buttons on it. And in order to do a transaction on the crypto internet, you must press these buttons too. Now, why would you use a hardware wallet? Because today crypto wallets, their browser extension, the way you use them is, like when you log into a website with Facebook or Google and there's a button, you can like log in, same with the crypto internet.

There's a little button that says, Hey, what's your crypto wallet. And if you have the Chrome extension for Mehta mask or Kepler, or one of the many wallets, you click yeah. Log in with my wallet and then boom sees your wallet. You're in the software, it's populated with your wallet data. And it's going to go time.

The problem is. And if you press a button and one of these apps, like the Crow, the extension opens up and you press a button to approve it. If someone's got malicious software onto your computer, somehow, like if you click the link, if you've got, I don't know if you went to a website, I don't know. There's a million ways people get stuff on your computer, like the email it to you, or you get socially engineered.

Maybe somehow your computer like has, is in view of a window and there's a camera looking at it. Basically some, a hacker could run a script. When you think you're pressing the button, something gets injected into the Chrome extension and like slides and updates your transaction and vacuums up your wallet and sends it all to somebody else.

So it happens every day. We're seeing it everyday on crypto Twitter, informed people, experienced people are telling stories about I can't believe it happened to me. And it happened to me too. And when I got going and I have the hardware, wallets, and all these things, even when you have these hardware wallets, there's still risks.

You could be tricked into entering your seed phrase on a website that you think is customer support. And I have friends today who have tens of thousands of dollars in their wallet that don't have, they don't have a hardware wallet and like they even bought them and they haven't moved to things over yet.

And I like get nauseous, I, when I was getting going, and when I had already put a bunch of my, like most of my money into crypto, One day I woke up and I had half a million dollars of my ruin tokens vacuumed up out of my account. And I had no, I honestly, I still to this day don't know what happened.

All I know, is there some sort of threat I bought a new computer. I, I changed my routers. I now have multiple wallets and I have my money broken up across many of them. So if any of them be a compromised, I have like different proportions on my wallets on like multisignature things. So I guess my point is I don't actually know what it really means to be safe.

And I think I sent it out loud because I don't know. I do think that you have tremendous control by having a hardware wallet, that is like bare minimum. If you're going get serious, use a hardware wallet, very few points of failure, but. We're still in the early days, I think in the future, what solves all this is, one day when the whole crypto internet is built, there's going to be a big smart contract layer over that internet of virtual machine.

And it's going to be, Hey, deposit your money onto the internet. And you're going to move money out of your wallet, onto your identity on this smart contract layer. And it's going to be like, click. It'll feel like the internet. But, and your money will we'll have some rails set up, but speculate about that later.

[00:10:08] Colin Keeley: Do you have any theories as to like how you were compromised if you

[00:10:10] Jason Hitchcock: My, my theory is I, I bought rune tokens. I was trying to do some liquidity providing on Thor, swap early on or bet swap at the time. And I just had a question and I asked it in their telegram group. And I, whenever you ask for support from all these companies, they all have discords and telegrams, you get like a million inbounds of like people that are pretending to be admins.

And at the time I did not know. I don't, maybe I didn't know about that or something, or maybe. At the brain fart. And I thought I was talking to someone that was a real admin. Maybe I clicked the link to what could have been Mehta masks. Maybe I typed in and then do not click enter. Maybe I typed in my seed phrase for a moment.

But by that I didn't need to click enter. It was already on the website. They captured it. Maybe that's my best theory, but I don't even remember doing that. So

[00:10:57] Colin Keeley: Oh, so we went through most of the basics in like liquidity pools and different stuff. In the last episode left to dive into some of the weirder stuff. One of the weirder things that's popped up that I've seen is and like self repaying loans. Could you explain that to like how it functions.

[00:11:12] Jason Hitchcock: And I think alcoholics is a great concept where if you, listeners, if you can understand alchemy X, you can understand anything in defy. And it's also like the quintessential what's possible with defy. And like you can look into the future and see what's coming. So I'll break it down.

I'll comics is a stealth repaying loans. And I recommend reading the white paper, because if you've never read a defy white paper, this one's good. It's written by really smart people who are good at writing and you'll understand it. It will be a fun read. And like the token omics section of the white paper is very interesting and is a representative of how many papers present this material.

So it's a self repaying loan system. And if you've learned about liquidity providing, and you've learned a little bit about where does yields come from? The way our works is they say, Hey, we're going to create a stable coin. But that stable coin is backed by the future yields that we're going to get for you.

And so let me explain this for the story. And then I'll double click into it. The story is you've got a hundred thousand dollars right now. You want to go by. What if I could tell you that you could get this car for free? But what you need to do is you're going to lock up your money for your a hundred thousand dollars.

You're going to pull out a $50,000 loan going to go buy your car. Okay, go drive that car. You do not need to pay this $50,000 back. It's yours. Outcome X takes that a hundred thousand dollars and it generated those $50,000 get generated. Those are synthetic stable coins. I just gave you. And then you swapped those stable coins into other stable coins and then into U S dollars.

And then into car land, they took your a hundred thousand dollar principle and they deposited it all onto yearn, which they earn between 28 and 35% APY on. They have a special partnership with the intern. And so it's now going to take around three years or three and a half years in that range for the yield it harvests every day and pays down that $50,000 you bought.

And then eventually really every day, your collateral is vesting as it pays down your loan. And that's how you're in works. And where does your, and get it to yield? It's on top, it's a strategy built on top of curve. And so here at the base layer, we have a primitive curve, this incredible li capitally efficient, stable coin swapping exchange that has its own token omics.

On top of it. Yearn is a protocol that is built to optimize, to taking advantage of those token omics, to generate yields. And then on top of yearn, you're able to build another thing which is alchemists, self repaying loans. How many different websites. Sell something, that could, how many timeshare websites could say, Hey, if you want to, do you want to pay in full right now?

You'll get all of it back in three years. There's definitely a segment of people that would love to take that. It may not be for everybody, but like I would, I think people who are worth over, X hundred thousand dollars would totally buy the car upfront if they knew they were getting it all back in three years.

[00:14:01] Colin Keeley: How come it's a super interesting, like why would someone do academics versus put your, Ethereum and get like a stable coin loan on your theory instead of that?

[00:14:11] Jason Hitchcock: That's a good question. I think it's a very specific tool that you can bring into strategies. And if you follow the community and go in their desk, or people are brainstorming out loud, and this is what I love about defy, because everyone thinks about everything like a Lego, oh, what can you build with this Lego?

Everyone's what could you do with self paying loans? And for example, the whole outcome X team, they have paid their salaries and self paying loans. So they took their whole salary, put it on, they took half their salary out and then as half their salary vests, they'll take another half out.

But again, they'll have this infinite loop of their salary is now self paying. That's cool. Or what about, Hey, you anticipate a bear markets coming up, and like maybe you want to get out of the market and protect your Eve. You could. They've recently added other assets as collateral and not just stable coins.

You can deposit all your Eve onto Alkin mix. Pull out 25% of that. You got your Eve, go cash it out, go play with it, make your life better. You're going to get all your teeth back in about seven years. Okay. That's a long time, but that's what the product looks like. That might fit into a strategy. And like also to see if I might get better than my payback sooner, who knows?

And yeah, I think basically you can just imagine, like I want, here's something I would like to do one day, for real, without gimmicks. I want to do a large thing. I want to raise a fund. I want to raise like $20 million and put it on Alkemy X and then pull out half. And then I want to invest in startups for a year.

And then my fund is going to be a self fundraising vehicle, in two, in three years, I'll have the whole fund back. And so you could space out the investments over time and it would like you would never stop doing funding, investing. That's interesting. So what else could you come up with?

[00:15:44] Colin Keeley: Yeah.

[00:15:44] Jason Hitchcock: And then, so the last thing though, to answer your question though, I don't necessarily think though, it's, it really depends on what you want to achieve in defy. It may not be the best tool for getting yield on eith. I don't think it's actually the best tool for getting deal anyth, but it's a great tool.

I would also say while we're talking about academics and opportunity for your viewers is they have some of the best liquidity pools and token omics in all of crypto. And so purchasing, outcome X, staking, it, you're going to earn a cut of all the fees as they, the way the protocol makes money. And it's been profitable from day one, as it pays down your loans in real time from harvesting yearn yield, 10% of that yield gets funneled to the protocol is revenue.

And today their token emission is going to people who have staked out Comix tokens, but pretty soon, all of that will be revenue from the protocol. As like the protocol grows and they add more strategies, they're going to have more revenue and that's all going to go to steak. Stakeout can mix and then provide them liquidity and outcome X Eve is a hundred percent APY.

So that's like really good.

[00:16:45] Colin Keeley: So. Back to, trad fi traditional finance, what do you see is the interaction there? Do you think, crypto is going to supplant or replace current banks.

So they're going to merge into it.

[00:16:55] Jason Hitchcock: A hundred percent, because what is a bank? What do people need out of banks? And what are young people doing today with their money? And, in the past, people went to a bank for custody, their money. We went, we did our checks there and stuff today. The fastest growing apps are like, cash app and Venmo and people are very accustomed to sending money and splitting Uber's by apps.

And finance is really getting discerned intermediated away from you going through a bank and like you're using, apps and all those apps, by the way, they interface with banks and tried fi I think FinTech is also going to get disrupted. I think FinTech define is going to eat FinTech because FinTech is just, a mask on an old digital mask on an old financial infrastructure.

Wire transfers since the day they were invented, still take the same amount of time and anybody that has ever done a wire transfer, once you use DFI, you're just like, oh, okay. Like here it comes. And. Yeah. So I think banks are going to have to really assess what's their opportunity right now?

What advantages do they have that they can assert into defy? And I think one advantage is the aggregated, a tremendous amount of customer relationships that are probably lazy and don't want to walk. Like people who are still subscribed to AOL for back in the day. And so I think they can give those people crypto wallets, and then they can say, Hey, here's how you like work with crypto.

And then just like in the same way that like met a mask, which has 10 million users when they had 2 million users, Metta mask was making 80 or 40,000 a month. And when they had 5 million users, they were making like 200,000 each a month. Okay. That's that's not 5 million users.

Okay. Show me a bank that has, alright, they're going to get to make that much too and get Heath on their balance sheet. Ethan is going to go to the moon and like these bags nugget to have you eat on their balance sheet while it's on the moon. So that's an opportunity. Another opportunity is banks have a a lot of capital and like maybe they could become a liquidity provider.

They could go jump on curve and start bumping up their deposits and saying, oh my God, we found more yield. We feel good about this yield self stable coins. Everyone's chill out. Like we're not doing the weird stuff. And so I think banks are going to go in that direction. They're gonna start off.

They're going to go find yield. They're going to give it to their customers. And then the third thing is I think banks are gonna pivot to becoming also, or not pivot. They're going to just, they're going to sell investment access. They're going to be like, we're going to have to take a financial product that, an investment manager has an RA like a defy or exposure to defy exposure to crypto period, go bank customers.

You should invest in this. I think a lot of people and they're gonna want to get their cut of that too. Because of like how big the values are going. It's interesting. They have, these banks have to compete against these new entities because crypto is the promise of FinTech.

Crypto is the reinvention of the financial stack from bottom to top. Cause like it's a whole network. And so all of the products in crypto are like these full stack products. Whereas everything in finances is a point solution, which is why like it takes 12 different kinds of entities to settle the trade on Robin hood.

Whereas in crypto it's like. Literally just Binance or Coinbase or just FTX. And they literally offer the entire ecosystem of financial products. And it's like really easy to imagine how that expands into things we've never even done before. Example, like we're starting to see things like dope Quan CEO of, Tara.

He has a, the mirror protocol, which is the synthetic asset platform, similar to synthetics where you have tokenized stock prices. These tokens don't really give you voting shares, but they are derivatives of the price. He's now, the Nebula protocols coming out and has like dynamic stock portfolios that will, automatically rebalanced based on. Oh, this is only going to be like the 20 most talked about, tech companies with a market cap above, $30 million on Twitter. And we're always just going to rebalance every five minutes based on that. That's just not something Schwaber and nobody can offer that except for crypto.

And so I think we're going to start to see a Crow up. We're going to see, I think things that banks won't be able to compete with are, like the granular, financial coordination mechanisms that are going to come out like your alpha mixes. A bank could never offer that. Yeah, like they're not gonna able to compete with that.

And so they're going to have to basically figure out where they fit into that picture. I don't think they fit in, they're going to it's and wallets are going to be winner take most industry. And yeah, I think this is a legacy. These are legacy industries. They don't do anything better.

[00:21:13] Colin Keeley: So like a bank list, they talk about these mullet apps where it's like a traditional, pretty web app on the front and then crypto in the back. Is there an opportunity to just, make it a million times easier? And then people wouldn't really need wallets. They could interact as they normally do.

[00:21:27] Jason Hitchcock: I strongly believe if I was doing that monkey Inferno studio, if I ran one, I would have a studio with a whole thesis of there's a unique opportunity right now for the next two years, three years to build the first-generation of a lot of applications that people will experience for the first time.

I think we're going to have thousands of wallets. I think we're gonna have thousands. We're gonna have lots of exchanges and we're going to have many interfaces for the same things, very common things. And all these interfaces are going to compete. And I think making these interfaces for the same protocol are going to be good businesses.

And, I think we're going to rethink what it means to be a good business. Do, does, do you really need to have a billion users to be a good business or can you make an enormous amount of. And sustain the whole thing, with, a hundred thousand customers. And so what's, I think what's, I think the opportunity right now where I'm going with this is banks.

You, me, your listeners, any company out there that has aggravated users can go and figure out what does it mean to give our users the ability to swap tokens? Why would they want to swap a token? A token is like a new primitive, any way, like a website or an app. It's not just going to be a financial thing.

Our app will have a token, where do we plug it into defy where we plug it into crypto. And by the way, when we're the entry point for our users, when they click a button like a crypto button on our app, they're going to have to pay some Eve. And we get to take a little bit of cut for that for creating that funnel.

And that's a great business. And what I was meaning early on, I think there's 7.5 billion people that need to join crypto. And they're all gonna come. And it's going to be a messy funnel. They're not all going to go to Coinbase. They're going to go Google, like crypto wallet. And they're going to have a whole list and they're gonna read reviews to learn, click on the number 18th, best one and be like a couple that one could be yours.

And it's if you could go back in time at the beginning of the internet and have a, like it's 1996 yet somehow you want your Shopify store for like premium gray, like premium and basics of and it was like, you had great t-shirt dot com. Like I bet that would be a fine business today.

If you did nothing to it, it would probably be ranked very high for great t-shirt and you'd have a lot of customers that bought great t-shirts and if you met crypto wallet.com like same thing will happen.

[00:23:37] Brent Sanders: Yeah.

This is totally like the. To the nineties. This is BBS is, and then all of a sudden, there's this thing called ICQ and AOL instant messenger. And it's those things are all, I think, ICQ stolen around, everyone kind of gets into what they get into and which also yields this kind of weird thing where something's just die.

And I guess the concern is, Is there a, you get people, they coalesce around something, whatever, it's a wallet, it's an exchange, whatever it ends up being, and these things are going to evolve and evolve. So I think the interesting part in which I am getting from everything you're saying is like, Hey, this is the early time.

And now that we've been around this cycle, you said you were 35. You've seen the cycle a couple of times, right? The map, come out, you saw the PC get displaced. You've seen Microsoft come around, rise, fall rise again, you've seen these cycles and it's just Hey, let's just be in the place.

Let's just be in the place and spread yourself. the chances of holding on to that, 1992 apple stock, it might work out, maybe the HP stock wasn't, it didn't pan out. Great. But the idea of that's what I'm like hearing from like the broadest highest level is like dip a toe and con I think you've echoed this too.

When we, maybe we've not talked about on the podcast, but this is just a point in time. Maybe we missed the first. A couple of lifts right here. I'm digging it. But but still, Yeah. but still it's like, this is just a kind of a position to be in to place to be. And whether you picked the ICQ or the, AOL instant messenger or whatever, your version of your, I, got it, like IRC or something like that, it's still may have, an impact and there may not be the big.

Winters, but these are all connected things, too. Like they're going to evolve and people are going to go from ICQ to, eventually there's going to be this thing called slack. But before that, we had other things and guess what? Next year there's going to be something new.

[00:25:26] Jason Hitchcock: What if slack was built on some ICQ infrastructure, what if in order to use, what if in order to use ICQ, unity to use ICQ tokens to log in every day. And at the beginning they were cheap, but like they were finite. And then over time, a lot of people use ICQ. A lot of things are built on ICQ. You still need ICQ tokens to use them.

And, you know what, and then as a user, like if you have ICQ tokens, like they'll collect a little bit of a dividend to, and it's a good thing you were using. Nice and cute token, early on, like you've got a big mountain of ICQ tokens and those are worth a lot. Like the weird thing about this sort of crypto economy is imagine if.

You're like an affiliate website in the early days, or imagine you're to pay your Amazon bill with Amazon credits. Or no, or Amazon stock, not AWS credits. In fact, what if you like, could only spend Amazon stock on Amazon and then like you're a store owner and like you're getting Amazon stock.

And then by the way, like affiliate sites that refer traffic to Amazon are getting paid in Amazon stock. It's all done in Amazon stock. And because you're a stakeholder and as Amazon grows with many stakeholders, it's a good thing. You participated in this big thing and you were a big contributor.

That's what's going on right now. That's the that's, what's different, but like the tokenization. Of everything is what's different. And when people look at crypto and get scared, they look at, I think, volatile prices and what they're really seeing for the first time ever is we are, we have, we are because it's tokenized.

We can see the value of where software is in real time. And we're witnessing the volatility of technology deployments, these hype cycles, these Gartner hype cycles of the, hype and trough of sorrow. And

If you look at like the Carlota Perez, technology deployment cycle, you'll see like what it looks like to deploy.

And there's an adoption phase. There's a frenzy that it's pretty chaotic. That's what the price of Bitcoin looks like. And EV and that's the principle. Everything like electricity would have been priced like that. If it had token.

[00:27:17] Brent Sanders: The interesting thing that I'm getting at that I think maybe. Crypto and defined, maybe the solution, going back to the analogy of BBS is an ICQ and this evolution is like a lot of those technologies in the nineties and two thousands even they got bought by, Cisco or something else.

I think that's what ideally this replaces is like instead of these things, having to run on fumes and open source contributors, they actually get funded by the, the organizations.

[00:27:41] Jason Hitchcock: makes money.

[00:27:42] Brent Sanders: And so it does actually come to fruition, so you don't have to sell it off to Cisco and then it gets crushed and only a couple of corporations end up here.

[00:27:50] Jason Hitchcock: No, that's a really good point. I agree with that.

[00:27:55] Colin Keeley: I'd like to hear more about moon capital. So this is what you do day to day nowadays, right?

[00:27:59] Jason Hitchcock: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm excited about it.

[00:28:02] Colin Keeley: It's what I, what is it, to start.

[00:28:05] Jason Hitchcock: Yeah. So me and three friends, one isn't his boss. He's the COO of Aakash. My friend Adam Mackins he's like a quantitative, trader and Ethereum subject matter expert and Ash Patel, who's family, it's 18 hotels runs them. So we all have these interesting backgrounds.

We've all been learning, defy trading together and farming, and we've been sharing strategies and we all have been going on this ride and we've all done really well. Our friends have all kind of heard about this as we literally tell everybody like you too, we'll help you. And all of our friends have been like, this is great, but I don't want to, because it's complicated.

And I believe you, and I believe in this, but can you do it for me? And so we've actually, we're like, Hey, a lot of people are saying, can you do it for me? And so we thought let's just do it for them. We spun up a fund. And we said, yes. And so we. Invested in defy. We have basically active five management investing as a strategy, as a service.

And, we simply invest, we have a thesis, which is, we believe. Eve is going to be the next internet. And on top of Eve, like we're seeing a Cambrian explosion of, like the first generation of apps and they're all taken off. And then we also believe that we're seeing a second wave of like cross chain interoperability services.

That if you believe that there will be more blockchains, then there, therefore. Things we'll need to integrate across them. And so we invest in basically defy and across chains and it's done really well. We've been in the market for a few months. We're like up like 300% so far. We're out, we're outperforming, the D Paul's index and grayscale, which is what we benchmark against.

And like also we benchmark against Ethan Bitcoin and we're outperforming those significantly. So we feel good. I think a lot of people are really excited. Like our investors were excited, to have the baseline of, we basically promised, but we can't really promise, Hey, we're gonna, we're going to go get you at least 15% a year.

And, but we think we're gonna go more than that because it's crypto assets. And so it's doing really well.

[00:29:57] Colin Keeley: How do you think about portfolio construction in this world? Hey, you're not just focusing on ease, you're doing a bunch of other stuff.

[00:30:03] Jason Hitchcock: Yeah. So our portfolio, we basically think about it in a few buckets. One bucket is macro assets, Bitcoin and ether. That's our smallest position. And we own them as a hedge. We get yield off them by providing liquidity and borrowing against them. They're very composable and defy. So that's one part.

Another part is. Defy index. We think devise big. We have beliefs about what's currently big and what's growing in defy. So we have an emerging deep fi a portfolio that's full of sushi. And, we have Ave in there. We had balancer and unit swap and we were recently sold those positions.

But, we were investing in the deck space. We're focused on sushi cause we just think it's under priced. They have an NFT platform coming out. They are building a lot of things and they are ready to capture it. I think they're going to capture and help a lot of developers. They remind me, they remind us of iOS and their developer onboarding.

But then if we move over to, to cross chain, this is the best performing part of our portfolio. And we continually sell off positions and double down on to cross chain. And so what is cross chain? There's a lot out there. But like we're looking at. We have our largest position is Luna. It's a cosmos blockchain.

It's like a go to market ready version of defy. And it's aimed at east Asia and they're doing really well. And they have a metallic like founder and people who I always say to people if like you missed out on a theory and I'm like, Luna's very exciting. And, if you think the EIP 1, 5, 5, 9 upgrade is thrilling and how it burns Eve like Luna has a 50 X more aggressive burn, and it's an exciting experiment.

That it's our largest position. We also invest in Adam. It's like the cosmos is the blockchain of blockchains and they make apps specific blockchains and. We provide liquidity on osmosis for Adam osmosis is like the unit swap of the cosmos ecosystem. And that's the blockchain of blockchain keeps on growing and more protocols launch on all of these blockchains.

All of them will be provided we'll get liquidity on osmosis. And so a great way to hold Adam tokens is by providing liquidity on osmosis with Adam osmosis pear, and it has very high APY. We also, then we'll, we have a DJ section where it's like avalanches launching, go farm.

We have stuff going on optimism. Let's go do everything on arbitrage so we can get airdrops. And we have this pool of capital that we just call like the hot ball of money that just rotates around and like just sucks up money and. And then we finally had, we take profits into a stable coin position that is sitting on convex, which is the way I'll connect is built on may layers, convex is like a Vultron suit user built on top of curve.

And it's like the best place to put stable coins and all the is on contracts. And those just grow. And a convex is what, like our goal is to just grow the stable coins until we've surpassed their like minimum guaranteed returns. And then after that, we'll just go crazy everywhere else. And we've done that.

So now we're just going crazy.

[00:32:50] Colin Keeley: so is everything public, right? Cause this is all in the blockchain. If I had to address,

[00:32:55] Jason Hitchcock: it is, if we would be happy to talk about it with anybody, we just don't do any marketing. It's just, I guess it is public. We could reveal that stuff. I'm happy to tell anybody anything we do. We just don't have a website or anything where we're like, yo, let's talk about thought leadership and stuff.

[00:33:09] Colin Keeley: I've been more like if I, as wanted to quickly follow all your trades, could I see them in real time as they happen? If people knew your address, it is a public

[00:33:18] Jason Hitchcock: That's oh gosh. I should talk to my partners about doing that. We should, I feel like that'd be fun.

[00:33:23] Colin Keeley: way. I was just curious. I wondered if all crypto funds are like

[00:33:26] Jason Hitchcock: We are doing stuff every day. We make moves every day and we're long on everything, but it's like this hot ball of money. That is what we do. And then also just five, crypto time is kinda like dog years. It's one year, one year of crypto is like five years of internet development time.

I think that's true. And then, which just means every week there's tremendous progress in the industry and there's opportunities and because all the assets are liquid, like it is reasonable to always ask the question, is this the most optimal allocation for what we're doing today? And should we be doubling down on something?

So I'll leave it at that.

[00:34:01] Colin Keeley: So one of my other questions here is like a year or so long on Ethereum. Is there any real concern that it's going to be dethroned, by some better technology in the future?

[00:34:10] Jason Hitchcock: I don't really think about it that way. That's a good question. It seems like a theorem. I look at things, like network effects and I look at adoption, like what's, how was it being used? And, in the same way that like, there's all these programming languages out there, like JavaScript, Ethereum has, it's the first blockchain, the whole point of a blockchain is to create demand for block space.

Because that's, what's going on there. And the more applications you have on a blockchain, the more. Users can onboard and use it and be like, wow, this app is useful. Let me write onto the blockchain and go, I need to use this block spaced. And that's, what's going on there. And then as they write more on the blockchain, they need to come back and use that data more, which then now you have users capturing a blockchain, which makes it great to build apps there.

Cause it's got users and then more, and then it brings you more capital. So you have this like flywheel going on and of as more happens and, Eve has off to the races. And when people complain about. XYZ, about a theory them, they're describing like an, a car that like we're driving as the pieces of the car are coming together.

And it's it's getting faster and safer and oh wow, checkout. It's got autopilot now. And we're, it's like everyone's sitting in the model T it's turning into a Tesla auto-driving, thing and we're commenting on along the way. And by the way, as more industries adopt onto a theorem, they're going to agitate and they're going to be invested in improving it.

And then they're also going to say, we don't have time. Our user experience in our business needs, demand other things. And so we're going to see other blockchains and rise. And we're seeing that with cosmos and Solano, and we're seeing layer ones that help with scaling. And as this happens, project teleport aspects of their infrastructure to different blockchains, and they're all figuring out what should their infrastructure be.

And so I think what's going to happen. I think Ethereum has a really big headstart and it's basically going to become like this base layer of the, the, I want to say, like the settlements layer of data, of the new internet and then it will be, and everything else will bridge back to it.

And, and then there'll be like some other layer built on top of all that is going to be like the user layer where we don't need to know anything about crypto. We just want to do shit. But, yeah. And what I would just also say is. believe more in a theory and then anything else. But, I also know that it's, that's because I have, why do I have more conviction?

It's been out there longer. I have more to think about it, to give me the conviction, these other, if you want to, if you're, common to crypto and you're like, wow, I've seen these people make a lot of money. How do I get all those tokens? How do I get rich or paperwork, a small fund? How do we make them a big fund?

You need to go further out on the risk curve. And so that's why a lot of the emerging funds like us, a lot of like sort of people who missed out on Bitcoin or they joined Ethereum like mid parabola, the place, the areas of development, where there that are going to have bigger multiples are cosmos Tara salon.

And these other ecosystems just have more market cap to grow into. So yeah.

[00:37:04] Colin Keeley: Yeah, I'd love to hear your recommendations for like portfolio construction for the people listening to this podcast for more active ones and then like more passive ones.

[00:37:13] Jason Hitchcock: And, I can't give advice to people in so far as to stay this is what you should do, but what I can say is here's how I think about things and how I allocate. And I have our fun things about things. And it's, we believe that the, I believe that the goal long-term is you should just stack as much a theory as possible.

It's like owning a own a piece of the next internet. And, this is gonna be the next internet it's already going. And by the way, a lot of the things that like make you skeptical about a theory of long-term like, there's a roadmap of crazy shit that is going to make a theory way more usable. So it's anyway, so I have one third of Ethereum and then the other two thirds of my portfolio are this sort of like high growth stuff.

And so one third of the portfolio is adipose Moses, and then I compound, I take the Osmo yield and I put it into. I'm always looking like every investment I make is I'm looking at what are like the layer one, like where will value accrue? And I want to invest in layer ones, like basically an entire blockchain that will, I can't necessarily pick a protocol.

It's gonna be a winner, but like the whole blockchain will win. And, Adam is one of those and, and also like osmosis has a bet of being like, it's the leading unit swap. It's beating out like the main one that cosmos has gravity decks and then Tara. So I just believe in it, it's a, it's got a lot of momentum.

5% of Korea uses like one of their apps. They have a major update at the end of this month called the Columbus five upgrade. It's like it's been widely anticipated in the community and it's a dependency for about like a hundred other protocols that are just like, they've been waiting for this update to come, and they're all going to launch at the same time and it's going to be wild.

And, what I love about, Tara is they're being heavily incubated and guided by like Delphi digital or, Delphi. And, what was I going to say? I'm like blanking on the name of the other firm. That's like heavily involved in incubating them. They have a great team, a ton of money and traction, you know that on it.

It's a great bet. And, and a great way to hold Luna is simply just like you can provide yield with it or like you can stake it and also earn, lastly, okay. And there's this other section I like, this is the thing I'm fascinated by is crypto native brands. And I think there's a unique opportunity for everyone.

See tweets that say, all these entities are going to zero. And I disagree with this tweet and I want to like make this point to you guys and your viewers and Lennon. I'm just, I'm spreading the gospel on this. I think that the NFTs that are out right now are, they're all historic, There's only going to be one in 2021 and it will end.

And then like never again will an nftd minted that has 20, 21 on it. And this was the year of defy or an NFT mania. And the supplies kept. And one day gas prices on Ethereum will be 10,000. And it will be impossible to mint anything on Ethereum and okay, it's that's the past is gone. And by the way, 7.5 billion users are coming.

I think some of those users are also going to want to do. What is currently the most popular thing in crypto, which is collect NFTs. And currently like everyone in crypto, all the entities are aimed at like R slash crypto. And what AR slash crypto likes it is historic things. First. We love the first generator of art.

The first Mandel brought, produced on Barra on the blockchain, the first audio NFT. We also like cool stuff like art put, we love these firsts and we've already decided crypto pumps matter. That's matter, like anything by larval labs, board, apes, art blocks, the first generative art brand. It's like the impressionist movement.

And there's all these reasons why, you can flex these things. I can't name 10 Vango owners, but I can name 30 crypto punk owners. And, to have him as a profile, this stuff is more important than I think everyone was under, is under appreciating it. And so I think that whatever, I think a good bet to make that's the equal to put a bunch of money into Bitcoin early on is go buy a name brand NFT, buy the cheapest one.

You can, if that's what it is, because it's going to appreciate and Eve, and so go buy, like you could go to art block and I would recommend go to art blocks search for the curated collection. If you don't know what you're doing and buy the cheapest curated art block, there's only 39,000 right now.

What does that mean? It sounds like a lot millions of people come to websites and they all buy stuff. There's only thousands of these things. And so in the future, Everyone's going to want to have, they're going to look at us as OGs. They're gonna be like, those people were the most legit. And, even if you have some bullshit in your wallet, they're going to want a piece of today.

And there's not much, it's a day to go around and they're going to have a lot of money. And, for our blocks, there's only so many curated collections and there's going to be a lot of rich people and a lot of funds that will want a complete collection. And you want them to have to go through you to do it.

And so you should, I think accumulating noteworthy, NFTs is like the key player right now. Like I, I think my crypto punk, I'm pretty sure it's going to be worth 25 million bucks in a few years. Because today the price floor is like a hundred. Many have sold for hundreds. I believe it's totally plausible that one day we see a price floor.

At 500 east, because credit is just signed with UTA, like all of the owners of crypto punks to these valuable NFTs are going to sing the gospel. They're going to invest and say, everyone should know about why these are so great. I've spent millions on these. I might make a documentary celebrities who own these like flat, like they're inherently going to become a force of culture, a cultural force.

And they're always going to get more valuable plus defy products. When you get dealt around them, we can borrow against these things. They're gonna be useful. So it's very plausible to me that you could see a price for a 500 for a curved out punk. And it's also very plausible that we see $150,000 or really even a $50,000 Eve.

That seems plausible to me. 500 times, 50,000, that's $25 million and it's a floor punk. So and now we have many collections by the way, that are approaching the value of gripped up punks that were only created recently. So this whole spiel is just I think the thing that we are underestimating today around investing in the, in crypto, like when the internet came out, we were all like, I can't believe how valuable startups get, like how big they get, like how many users use them?

Like how much money they make. Look at their stock prices. Everyone was shocked for two, 15 years. And we're still like trying to get over it. The thing that is about to happen, the same thing is going to happen in crypto. But it's with crypto native brands, we are going to be shocked at how quickly these brands explode, like board API club, six months old, $700 million in sales after.

Sotheby's and Christie's have sold them from, tens of millions and celebrities, rock them as their avatars. This is just a pro this is the minute. This is like the minimum viable product of a crypto native brand. And it's already almost a multi billion dollar brand in six months. What happens when someone with actual good storytelling and a good team and like very intentional about making an immersive brand, makes a crypto native brand.

I, it, we won't launch below, but like the, really the call to action is I think 5% of your portfolio in JPEGs. And if anybody on here wanders, and you don't know where to go, the DME and we'll help you. We'll do this together. I have been buying JPEGs. I bought a crummy squiggle. I got, I bought loot, which is, I think going to be a primitive.

Everyone's gonna care about loot the way they care about, crypto punks. I could, sorry.

[00:44:23] Colin Keeley: And then I think a lot of people listen to us. They have a theory and they have Bitcoin. I don't know if they want to spend like all day, every day researching this stuff. What is good passive way to make some income on a theory? What are you recommending to folks? Now? It is.

[00:44:36] Jason Hitchcock: I think there's levels of engagement. So like level one engagement. I don't want to think about this at all. Like I have found it, there's this thing called Haru invest, which is not defy. It's a, they work with block crafters, which is a crypto trading firm. You give them custody of your eith or your big or your Bitcoin.

And they run day trading strategies on them that are low risk. It turns out, I didn't even know this. There are like no loss of stage writing strategies in volatile markets. That's what they do. You can go Google and their help section explain it, but if you lock up your eat for a year, They have different plans that you can, go on, but like one is 16% APY.

Another is they have one called better than staking, which is a little bit riskier. It's 18 to 24% APY I'm in that I'm currently earning 19% APY every day compounds. I could see an airdrop I've been using this for a year and a half everyday. I've gotten yield. It's delivered. Exactly.

[00:45:35] Colin Keeley: A little riskier, like what are they doing with that?

[00:45:38] Jason Hitchcock: I'm not sure.

They had to, they basically want, they came out with a Bitcoin one. They say we have a new product. It involves like slightly riskier strategies and we take the slightly higher. That's all that kind of said. And then they said we're working on a theater room and they came out with your hearing one.

I think it took time to there's a, I think it took time to train models is my guest. We're recently seeing good Ethereum bots come out for trading, but, I believe in it, I know corporate treasuries that are on there. I know high net worth individuals that have millions of dollars on there, and I've been very happy with them.

And I have a really awesome referral code that I get. I get barely anything from, but you could get 0.2% for life APY, which is like a crazy perk. The other sort of level to Ethereum, like you want to hold a theorem and get yield on it. A crazy thing you could do is swap half that Ethereum for Ethereum flexible leverage index, which is a tokenized, exposure to a two X, two X leverage strategy that does not have any risk of liquidation it's.

And so you end up owning half that token. So when a theory goes up, this token goes up double. When a fan goes down, this goes down double. If you own half this token, then you can provide liquidity on unit swap for Eve to X FLI. And then what ends up happening is you're going to collect fees and all the people who want to buy this token, which is going to be like around 10% APY.

And then you're also going to have a 50% exposure to a two X, two X leverage strategy. And so two F two X leverage, performance, the crap of Ethereum and Ethereum, that's like a great way to. You can also stick it on a validator and like you're part of the supercomputer. You earn less yields, go to a, go to Lido finance and earn 8% a year.

It's believed that after the merge that might go up to 20% APY, that could be exciting. And then like level three would be like, gets here. You can borrow, go crazy and defy, put your Eve onto something like the liquidy protocol. That's what I recommend or go to Oasis, which is like the protocol made by maker and they make dye and you can borrow against your Eve collateralize.

It borrow against it. Borrow, like a safe amount, like 35 or 40%. You can now go take that dot. You now have a debt. You need to pay down, but like you now have extra money of leverage. Go out there and deposit all the stable coins onto convex and earn 20% APY and then pay down your loan. Now you're a yield farmer. But now you have to manage your liquidation. If the price goes down too much, you get liquidated. So that's risky. I think those are the different levels. And if, again, DM me on Twitter, if you want to talk more about some of those things,

[00:48:05] Colin Keeley: So it feels like everything is just progressing so quickly in like new stuff's coming out every day. Like, how do you stay up to date? Day-to-day like, what are your information sources?

[00:48:14] Jason Hitchcock: Twitter. I follow fund managers on Twitter, and then I see who they like, and I follow projects that I'm interested that I use. I jump in their discords and I follow updates. I listened to bank lists. Every episode I read their newsletter. I hang out, I listened to Anthony Sonos daily way. I wanna listen to every podcast that can I listened to three arrows capital, what they have to say for like macro point of views on the market.

Raul Paul, what does his macro point of view? They're like people I go to, to learn about the Dows and that might be. Cooper troop, a guy who's like everywhere. And I might participate in a Dow, like I'll come mix. I participate in that now or the different protocols. I try to vote and read proposals to see what's going on.

And then, you'll start to see who's active in these communities and you start calling them and it takes time to figure out what the pulse is. Cause you don't even know what you want to keep track of. There's too much information. So figure out what you are interested. And then I'd go find, who's saying stuff on that space.

Like I found DZ for NFTs. And then recently there, man, this is wild yesterday. I had been following this guy, cosmetics, a DJ showed up at two months ago and it was like, I just bought this zombie. Let me tell you the story and how I bought a zombie for like millions. And then, a week ago, he, and then he delivered value for two months on like NFTs and art collecting.

And he was like, I'm from a family of art collectors. And we believe only the greatest artists only their greatest works. That's our style. And now I'm here in NFT lands to make my family proud. And everyone's we're so glad to have you Cosmo. And he doxed himself yesterday. He was Snoop dog. And everyone's I can't believe that this anonymous account that has delivered so much value to the NMT community.

And it's spoken so authentically about art and if he's Ethereum us and it was Snoop Dogg and it was like, not, it didn't even sound like him and what a polymath. He became famous twice, like one suit anonymously and he became a hero. His collection of NFTs is insane. Yeah,

[00:50:03] Colin Keeley: I gotta look into that. It's

[00:50:04] Jason Hitchcock: I'm still like I'm coming down from this last night.

Like I think NFTs out there. Elon Musk,

[00:50:09] Colin Keeley: Wow.

[00:50:10] Jason Hitchcock: Snoop Dogg, he got Jason Derulo to buy a crypto punk.

[00:50:15] Colin Keeley: He's on Twitter as cosmos. Ah, I see. Okay.

[00:50:24] Jason Hitchcock: read the first read, which is the story of how he bought it. And then you'll read it. And then like, when you realize this is Snoop dog, I have to reread every tweet he's ever sent its new dog's voice.

[00:50:34] Colin Keeley: I'm pumped. Yeah, I'm going to follow this. Let me do it. Okay. So now some of the ending questions that I think are going to be super cool. So future predictions. So what upcoming project are you most excited about?

[00:50:45] Jason Hitchcock: Okay. So future predictions, I'm excited about fractional, which is started by this guy, Andy. Eight. Oh, five, two. And he hired this guy to DZ, to be as community manager. Who's a big NMT guy who was always hosting spaces. Fractional, problem, 10,000 crypto punks. You've heard about them and you believe that.

You can invest in them though, because there's only 10,000 and we're all poor. So and they're too expensive now fractionalization is you can basically take your NFT that you own and you can turn it into many tokens and shares and you can sell those and then people can buy and they will own a piece of your token.

And so we've started to see the original doge photo was fractionalized. We saw zombie get fractionalized. And when retail has access, like the doge photo was bought for $4 million. Oh my God. It was fractionalized. And its market cap like 20% of it was fractionalized. And, the market, when people bought it instantly and the price of those tokens drove the market cap up to $250 million.

And it came down right away, but you can see where it can go when retail gets to participate. And so I. The brands like we have really inefficient NFT markets right now for art and collectibles and fractionalization is going to make price discovery more efficient as retail who finds out about these things can get exposure.

And that is going to be the thing that like, if my $25 million crypto punk prediction, that's, what's going to make my prediction legs seem really conservative.

[00:52:11] Colin Keeley: For sure. And then, so like how about one year out, five years out, 10 years out? What do you foresee.

[00:52:17] Jason Hitchcock: Okay. One year out what we will see. So I said time on crypto moves at the spade of five years on internet time. So I think we're going to see stable coins. We'll we'll cross the 20 billion. Or, specifically just that's the terrorist stable going. We'll see 500 billion in stable coins out in the market or no, I'm sorry.

Yeah, 500 billion would be out there today with a hundred billion. We're going to see defy apps that are across on every blockchain firing on all cylinders. We're going to see, 10 times as many users, we'll have. And so that the flood gates will also begin to open as like right now, all my tech friends a year ago were like aloof on crypto.

Or not really into it, or bought into like unimportant negative RNA arguments. Today they're like, that's all they talk about is crypto and being into it. And so I think now they're all gonna start working in it and They're starting to join right now. And so I think after a year they're gonna have a lot of stories and like more of their friends will join.

Like the wave will open. So then in five years, we'll see the great crypto vampire attack on tech will be in motion as the greatest minds don't want to work on ad clicking, and search like the greatest minds are going to see greater economic alignment between their talents and interests, serving the users and making money.

And they're going to get super rich, working on protocols. And so I think in. We're gonna hear lots of stories about people getting rich, who are very talented, who worked for protocols, and it's going to be more than just solidity engineer, building complicated crypto thing. It's going to be like, we'll see protocol politicians emerge, who like by, for Dow changes, we will see consultants, a new consultant class.

We will see, a new type of principal engineer and a new type of pro product. New class of product makers who know that you can't just make a pretty picture. You need to rally a community and tap into values of like society to really build something in this world. This, these crypto machines have like a social layer that are required to work.

It's not just a marketing funnel. You go down, we're going to see stable coins continue, continuing to explode. And the circulation will probably be, we'll probably see crypto, man, maybe like a $15 trillion market cap or more 15 to $20 trillion. And so at this time in five years, like he will probably be north of a hundred thousand dollars.

We're going to begin to see brand marketing with NFTs. Imagine this is the way marketing should really work. Imagine Nike funds every marathon in the world and they say, Hey, every marathon, Nike here, we have created some sick NFT software. We want every single participant. When they cross that finish line, we want the NFP of the race, their results, and all the finishers to appear in their wallet.

We want them to get a Nike marathon NFT. We're so proud of everybody. There's these are sick. We hired the greatest artists and by the way, After your 50th marathon, you're going to get really accepted. We've made a smart contract that we'll invite you to the runner tribe and like welcome to the runner tribe.

You got 50 Nike marathon badges in your wallet. Welcome. You get access to these kinds of this kind of clothing, these discounts, these events, we have a lot in store for you. And I think that's going to be really normal or like those experiments will start to feel common, but they won't feel right quite yet.

And then in 10 years, like everything will be crypto internet. And like that will be a normal thing. And we will all have extensive in the same way that like Facebook was like, just a profile initially and a wall that you could post on. And like you could upload photos and the internet, maybe even before then was just like, Text and images on the internet.

And it was like, it was basically the internet, it was magazines and and trap travel magazines and chat, chat rooms, and blogs and internet was not good back then. And then a web 2.0, happened so right now that's where crypto is. But then like now you look at what Facebook is. It's like many apps since like the UIs are very different in like they're multi-screen and they have Oculus and, they're, they have complex business.

There's going to be crypto stuff like that. That's complicated and big and does a lot of things and it's gonna feel really good and integrated. And so I think, that's how we'll reflect on like a crypto that will be very clean and functional and 10 years across all aspects of our lives.

It's the fastest growing technology, keep in mind, seven to 70 years to get everybody a computer in everybody's hands and connected on social service. From like world war II, mainframes, desktop, internet mobile. Here we go. Now we have crypto. It's gonna, it's not gonna take long to get everyone on a crypto cause it's just deploy.

And then we're all going to get it really quickly and we're going to discuss it. And it's not going to take long for us. This is gonna be the fastest growing thing. And then we're all gonna have on chain identities that we get a lot of value from a crypto punk floor in 10 years. We'll be, there'll be, I dunno, man.

It'll be like, there'll be 150 million, $200 million of floor. I don't know. He's only gonna be a floor. It'll only be a seal filling. So I can't wait crypto future and all of us congratulate you. And I congratulate all the viewers. Cause we're all gonna be there. We're all gonna make it. Cause we're all going to be exposed to crypto after this episode, at least.

And we're all going to be so rich.

[00:57:17] Colin Keeley: I love it. This has been super inspiring. Yeah, I think that's a good note to end on. Thanks so much, Jason.

[00:57:21] Jason Hitchcock: I would just, and this is really great. If anybody, if you really liked having this conversation, DME on Twitter, or I have the link in my bio lunch, but I love talking to people. It's how this interview even came about. I'm at Jason Hitchcock on Twitter, and I'd love to talk to you about, what I'd love to help you navigate defy.

[00:57:39] Colin Keeley: Perfect. So feel free to reach out to them. I'll include that in the show notes as well. I'll link to his Twitter account so you can reach out, but thanks again.

[00:57:46] Jason Hitchcock: Cheers.

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